Gary: What part does pain play in zazen? For most people their first experience isnt a blissful state.
Ekai: [laughter] The most important part that zazen plays is that it forces us to face reality. We are often blinded to this or ignore it, either intentionally or unintentionally. That makes it very difficult to see reality as it is. In reality there is no such world as a world without pain [laughter]. It is hard to acknowledge that, and not only to acknowledge it but to accept it and let go. And not only to let go but to come to the spiritual crux of Zen: appreciation of that. Without that there is no life. So pain plays a very important role in different stages. The person who sits for the first time finds the pain as an enemy. But sometimes we say that an enemy is a friend that we dont yet know. Once you become friends with your enemy, or what you thought was your enemy, then best friends. So the process of zazen is to become intimate with some of the blind spots and to learn how to relate. It is important that we make a right effort, and right effort comes through getting to know the pain. As long as we are always reactionary to something we dont like, such as pain, then we never become intimate. If we become more familiar or intimate then naturally understanding comes. Then right actions, the right response, becomes clear. I am explaining in an analytical way a slow process, but actually you dont need to think too much about it. You make a good effort each time. When pain takes over you lose your balance and you cant sit. So before that you learn to stand up and do something else, walking or something. And again, back and forth. If you do this process again and again then you are learning how to be with the pain, accepting, letting go, without destroying ourselves (laughter). We have a problem whether we destroy the pain or whether we are destroyed by the pain. A kind of fight is going on. Im not practising right or Im not doing zazen right. You become upset by it if you cant push or something. The more you are eager to sit, or if you have a strong will. Strong will can just be a strong ego. Its very hard to tell sometimes.

Gary: Often when you talk about zazen you use words like close and intimate. Close or intimate to what?
Ekai: With zazen intimate is a term used to express that there is no conflict. There is an intimacy and there are no barriers. So in other words there is already a meeting point. Intimacy means more close, more face to face, a more direct connection. And more feeling involved. Closeness is more mechanical.

Gary: Closeness implies physically closer
Ekai: Yes, but intimacy involves feelings. So it is on all levels. Not only on an idea level but on a feeling level and an experience level. Another way to say it would be that there is comfort. You are comfortable with yourself. You are intimate with yourself. If you are not intimate with yourself then you can never be comfortable. If you are comfortable with others then this means that you are already intimate with yourself. In the context of zazen, at the beginning we do not have this intimacy with our own body and mind, our own self. Because of that it is very difficult to be truly intimate with other selves. If we develop intimacy with our own self, then we come to realise that everybody is just the same as ourselves. At the beginning we dont know it. But once you become intimate or comfortable with yourself then you become open to others. People are at different stages, trying to find this place. Sometimes people are in the wrong spot, just looking for comfort. People are drawn to a holiday spot and want that to last forever. I am not talking about that.

Gary: As you become more intimate and become more transparent to yourself, you see parts of yourself that you had hidden from yourself, and that arent particularly nice. Do you just accept those parts or do you say I need to change those parts. What do you do?
Ekai: This has something to do with holding onto some idea of progress, or attachment. At the beginning we start to discover parts of ourselves and become more comfortable with them. This kind of experiences sticks and starts to become more solid. The tendency is to think that we can start from there and use previous experiences as a stepping stone to go further. Often that causes a problem because again, you are holding onto some experience or feeling, or the idea that you are getting better. Actually intimacy involves dropping this notion of achievement. Then we become more and more intimate. So always the effort in the practice is to let go. Its like the breath, as soon as you take a breath in you let go. If you keep accumulating all kinds of goodies [laughter]

Gary: Or bad[laughter]
Ekai: [laughter] Yes it can be that. as if these are your own assets then you end up with a monster that you have to deal with [laughter]. Very far away from emptiness. [laughter]

Gary: Is there a prescribed length of time or number of times per week that a person should sit?
Ekai: I think a person who is interested in sitting should sit as much as they can. [laughter]

Gary: I knew youd say that [laughter].
Ekai: [laughter] So the important thing is to generate an interest in sitting, not how much you sit.

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